5 minutes with Naval (what still holds in the age of AI)

Everyone wants to know how to get rich.

Far fewer will ever understand what it actually takes, especially in today’s era.

A lot of you likely already know Naval: The tweets, the podcasts, the stories.

What you don't get from any of that is how he thinks in real-time, unprompted, in private. He starts from first principles and stays there, even when the question incites a more polarizing response.

He shared his views with me on a couple core subject matters which you will read about today, some of which he's not discussed in public as of late, or at all.

This short dialogue with him changed how I think about creating, making money, and my life's work for the foreseeable future, and now I will share it with you.

My hope is the same for you.

Let's get started...

Who he writes for

The first thing I asked him about was wildly famous "How to Get Rich Without Getting Lucky" thread, and more specifically, who he was writing it for.

With genuine curiosity driving my approach, understanding who he thought was going to look at that thread and actually internalize it, have self-belief, and be able to take action was crucial for the foundation of the conversation.

Speaking from experience, there is so much motivation slop out there which drips undeserved dopamine into the minds of the anxious scroller generation.

You can get cheap dopamine hits from just reading online and feel like you're making progress, but most rarely take action to see it through. In his answer, he said that he ultimately just writes for himself, and that it wasn't for a specific group of people or person.

He explained to me that his focus is drafting timeless writing and evergreen content that persists no matter what change happens in the world.

He also humbly mentioned to me that he hasn't always been right in his career. Obviously none of us are, but he did say that his priority is being able to create this timeless knowledge, in public, for people to be able to learn and grow from. There was a feeling of openness to feedback and humility in this part of the conversation. I can only imagine how many people like myself have benefitted from reading that specific thread, or any of Naval's work.

Again, taking action is the key here.

For some context, I first read it back in 2018 as a young entrepreneur. So, when I mentioned that to him, I asked specifically, "Based on where we are now, do you think that the lessons in that thread are still true?"

He confirmed that he believes this to be true.

From this short interaction, it's clear to me that his endgame is to write for himself and create timeless content for the world, whether the engagement reflects the craft (or not).

Meeting him felt like opening an infinite fountain of knowledge, without the boastful nature of many successful philosopher-types. The reserved way of relaying his experiences to a young buck says a lot about his character.

Does "it" still hold up in an age of AI?

In the world we live in today, AI is the most polarizing subject matter. With this in mind, I asked him about the way he feels about AI acceleration.

I asked him "Did you anticipate that AI was going to change so much of the way the world works, so quickly?", and he promptly replied saying that no one could have prepared for this. He pointed to the speed of intelligence progress and there was an odd aura in the air for a split second of semi-awkward eye contact.

He went on to say that in his mind, the lessons and the preachings that he's put out there in the world continue to hold true, even in a future of AGI. This is the sweet spot from his perspective.

While the commoditization of nearly every software-based industry is unfolding right in front of our eyes, evergreen wisdom can never be commoditized. Risk and allocation of capital into capital markets may be able to be optimized, but taking risks, that's not something AI can automate.

This is the line of thought Naval has me on, post-conversation.

In summary, authenticity, timelessness, and valuable life lessons persist and become more important in the age of artificial intelligence.

Accepting tradeoffs in life & investing

Somehow the AI doomerism, mixed with pragmatic advice, took us to crypto, specifically Zcash and Bitcoin. With the previous back-and-forth in mind, I steered the conversation towards the AI surveillance state that we are (unfortunately) snowballing towards.

He mentioned how Zcash has risen over the last 18 months as the antithesis to this privacy-invasive, AI future.

I specifically asked him about his post that said "Zcash is insurance for Bitcoin," given myself and many of you are investors in both assets.

My read? Know exactly what you're holding and how you believe it ranks against any other asset, battling opportunity cost is inevitable - but making mistakes due to lack of understanding is fully preventable (especially in today's AI era)

He mentioned that obviously you have this tradeoff where even if you try to hide Bitcoin across ten different addresses, the government is still able to track it.

That's the beauty of the blockchain design.

His take was essentially that these public networks, especially in the age of AI, are far too easy to track. That is one of his major criticisms of Bitcoin at this point.

Whether it's the government, tax collectors, or big corporations, they have the ability to monitor your assets.

Privacy and transparency are simply one example of a tradeoff spectrum. Every decision you make in life has a tradeoff, the biggest mistake is not recognizing this.

So, I asked him if he's still a Bitcoin bull and he looked at me almost stunned, and confirmed he is.

Obviously, he's a Zcash investor and advocate, but he was actually quite meticulous in the way he explained to me that Zcash has an auditability issue where you may never know the max supply. That's the tradeoff that you accept.

I recently spoke to an ultra-high net worth investor on the show who explained to me that the best investors are in the "top 1% of understanding what they hold" and will always be able to update their thesis with new information. While this may not be the exact perfect example of that, I do feel like understanding this trade-off and having the ability to own both assets is a representation of deep understanding of cryptography and the way that these assets and networks operate.

That is a sign of a very intelligent and likely successful investor.

What I can't stop thinking about

Through this short conversation, there were a couple of real core themes that have led me into rumination and deep thought.

Here are my biggest lessons and takeaways:

1.) Timelessness and the evergreen nature of content, of money, and of your mental well-being: that is the epitome of selection, of assets, of choices, of content.

Timelessness and evergreenness go all the way back to the earliest days of philosophy. Guys like Seneca and John Locke and others practiced this. It even goes back to the Bible.

This is especially unique in the infinite intelligence AI era, where timeless knowledge and teachings transcend LLM prompt slop.

2.) Create for yourself first. Naval doesn't write for a persona or a market. He writes for himself and puts it out in public.

The stuff that lasts usually isn't made for an audience, and the people who need it find it anyway.

Whether someone reads it doesn't really matter. What matters is whether they act on it.

For me, this goes for making content & videos, for artists it means creating art that they themselves love. This lesson applies to creatives, especially.

One small caveat that I would add here is that when the market gives you feedback, it is important to adhere to what is working from a business and commercial perspective.

Above the algo control line, you are in the driver's seat. Below the line too far, and you are a puppet in the Silicon Valley play.

However, it is crucial to not let the algorithm dictate your thoughts. Then, you slip under what I would consider the algorithmic control line.

You do not want an algorithm to control your thoughts.

You want to write it for yourself or create for yourself first, and mold your content tastefully based on feedback from others, not algorithms.

3.) Always know your tradeoffs. Naval is a Bitcoin bull and a Zcash bull, and he clearly pointed out Zcash's flaw to me: you may never be able to fully audit the supply.

With privacy, you give up auditability. With transparency, you give up privacy. Having deep belief doesn't mean ignoring the tradeoff. It means knowing which one you're picking and why.

This is very important for a lot of things in life where people get so polarized on owning only one asset. Think about Peter Schiff and his gold thesis. He will never own Bitcoin, even though it is an alternative and 'insurance' to his Gold thesis.

People get so caught up in the black and white of the world, and they don't understand that everything has a tradeoff.

Diversifying risk, understanding these tradeoffs, and accepting them for what they are at an objective reality level is not only the key to a prosperous life, but also a clear head and an objective view of reality that many don't have.

Five minutes recapped

I only had the chance to talk with Naval for a total of 5 minutes, but he graciously answered my questions and treated me as an equal. For this, I will be eternally grateful.

He may appreciate my writings today, or he may not.

If you're reading this, Naval:

The last 7 years of dropping out of college and going 'all-in' on entrepreneurship has turned me into a man, one that I did not know I was capable of becoming.

So when you write in public that "Reading is faster than listening. Doing is faster than watching" and to "Work as hard as you can. Even though who you work with and what you work on are more important than how hard you work", and "Embrace accountability, and take business risks under your own name. Society will reward you with responsibility, equity, and leverage" and "Pick an industry where you can play long term games with long term people.", well these are principles I've lived by for the last 7 years as an entrepreneur.

So here I am, taking yet another swing, another shot on goal, and will continue to do so until the lights shut off and I'm 6 feet under.

To be clear, I didn't have any of this planned. It was all impromptu, based on my own internal curiosities and on being an avid reader of your content.

Reading your early work and the original post, led me to online business and marketing via X, then to crypto, then to content and media, and now into a whole different world of entrepreneurship and speaking to some of the brightest founders, investors, and capitalists in the world.

To all of you still reading this: firstly, I greatly appreciate your time. Attention is becoming one of the only scarce resources in the world.

If I were to summarize this entire piece into one sentence, it'd be this:

Build things that last, be honest when you're wrong, and pick your tradeoffs on purpose, whether that's content, money, or how you live.

Again:

Build things that last, be honest when you're wrong, and pick your tradeoffs on purpose, whether that's content, money, or how you live.

As always, consuming is the easy part. Taking action is still a rare trait, and the world's riches and the fullest potential of all of us is actualized from those who take action.

Go get 1% better today.

Thanks for reading.

• *– Andy

P.S. Full conversations every week with the leading minds in finance, AI, crypto, and more on @therollupco.

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Onwards & upwards.